Norman, you're being v assertive.
Kidding myself? Folly? May have struck lucky once?

If you're just being a wind-up, then I'm not interested. Some one else can flame you. But I'll trust you're genuine as well.


I too am a geology BSc and therefore I know that you're obviously not frightened of a compass, and know how to use one. Any mapping you've done will have required you to know exactly where you were in order for your map to have any value.

But just as you've done 660 mtns without a map& compass and know from your own experience that you can do it and won't have anyone gainsay that, I've clocked up alot of experience too and won't have you tell me that something I know works, is folly or I'm kidding myself. I have the proof of my own ample experience that it does. Your blunt challenging of magnetic interference and white-out navigation is wrong. Have some respect for others' accumulated knowledge.

And speed? Sure is quicker to walk back 100 ft and check 10 more bearings, than the time taken to go down the wrong ridge.

Of course if you have the luxury of the time to wander off existentionally, and it not matter which mountain you're on, then that's fine. The rest of us know it's better with limited time to use skills to go where we've planned.

Finally, the rock climbing analogy is poor - if without a compass you walk down the wrong ridge, it wouldn't kill you instantly(it's just awkward and time consuming). But soloing will with one slip. However if you've rehearsed a route, then you know where the holds etc are, and it becomes 'a performance', like a concert violinist practicing a concerto before going in front of an audience. (unless you're trying to tell me she did it on sight?) So yes, you are free to wander off the wrong slope, and make for the wrong set of trees and road, and collect your mate from Kyleakin. It wasn't a problem for anyone that day.

sincerely

Can't believe you are serious about Catherine D having rehearsed every move for her final performance on a seastack well over 400ft high! She has routinely on-sight soloed virtually everything she's climbed since she was a wee lassie...

I guess that here she's following in the illustrious footsteps of select pioneers, who recognised that the then standard practice of moving roped together was far more dangerous.

Regarding solo navigation in a white-out - please could I ask what degree of accuracy you are claiming for that remarkable feat?

As for navigating in the Black Cuillin, at the risk of being once again labelled as a Clockwork Painter, I strongly suspect that you are simply ignoring the readings which enable you to arrive at the known correct answer. I also note that the number of readings taken has now dropped from 15 to 10...

Regarding the 'wrong' Red Cuillin trees, ridge, road etc - I did beat the guidebook time by over 2 hours, avoiding 500ft of re-ascent and hurricane force winds up in thick mist, so I guess there are worse 'wrong' routes I could have taken, n'est pas.

"I think I'm right in saying that many tragedies are of the 'All the gear - no idea', variety. Some folk seem to believe that if they've got the latest kit they'll be OK."


Norman,
Can't decide if you're serious or a wind up because I just can't place your logic. I've honestly never met a hillgoer, in 25 years of hillgoing, who seems to be so opposed to the principal of going prepared. I've certainly never been confronted with the argument that basic navigational tools have little or no benefit in adverse conditions. I've spent some time thinking about your comments, in particular the statment quoted above which seems to sum up your attitude, because, after all, a hillgoer of your experience may well have a point and I may well be wrong, n'est pas? However, I can't corroborate your assertion that over-equiped, ill-experienced people are the ones who get into trouble. In fact, the most thorough study of MR incidents in Scotland: Sharp Report suggests the opposite. Those most at risk are experienced, plan badly and do not equip themselves correctly. Navgational difficulties and getting seperated from other party members also appear to be common factors in incidents. Some of sharps key conclusions:


•Experience does not guarantee safety. Over half of those involved in mountain incidents are experienced hillgoers. There is a need to reinforce the message that experience does not make people infallible and that caution should prevail even when the risks are apparently low.

•Hill walking is not without risks. Most incidents happen to hill walkers and many hill walkers die in the mountains. There is a need to underline the importance especially of good navigation and thorough planning as key ingredients of safe practice.

•Ensure all appropriate items of equipment are taken. By and large, few incidents result from equipment failure or misuse. However, a substantial (and increasing) number can be traced to a simple item such as a forgotten compass or low headlight battery. A few tragic accidents have resulted from people not wearing crampons or using an ice axe, or using walking poles instead of an axe. It is important to make the point that the majority of incidents where equipment is a contributory cause are avoidable ones.

•Poor navigation. The most commonly cited contributory cause of mountain incidents is poor navigation and the percentage of people becoming lost in increasing. Poor navigation leads to people becoming overdue, exhausted, lost, benighted and cragfast, sometimes with fatal consequences. There is a need to convey this message to all mountaineers including both climbers and walkers.

•Preparation is fundamental. There is scope for improvement in terms of planning, preparing and timing. Over a third of all incidents result from poor planning and underestimation of time. Inadequate planning is a problem not only for hill walkers but also those who scramble and climb in winter and summer. On a positive note, the evidence suggests this is becoming less of a problem.

A good posting Dave. I too am not sure what Norman is trying to achieve here.

Why the cynical sneer about "remarkable feat of navigation"? I paid you the
complement of assuming you are in fact able to use a compass. Should I doubt this
now if you find it so remarkable? Why do you find this remarkable?
In the order of 50m out over 1km which is well less than 5º. Count steps forward (I regularly hit pace tallies at only 2% error), then move perpendicular to relocate. Everyone competant knows this. Can you not navigate in 5m visibility? I'm not saying it's not difficult, but I have had good success on many occasions. Many.
The point of having a map in no visibility, is that you know where you are. Short of being dumped blindfolded somewhere you don't know in thick cloud by a helicopter, you will always know where you are, by keeping track as you progress from a known point.

"If you carry a map & compass, you will end up using them, thereby missing out on the enjoyment of working out later where you have been. Not sure how taking numerous compass bearings & averaging them is consistent with moving fast"
Can't help but feel you've "struck lucky" on many occasions then.

The magnetic thing, again I don't know why you are so scathing. If you're on
the main ridge, topography of following the highest point means it'll be a one way
or the other decision. So of course you're dealing with knowns. Descending into an
opening corrie and having to hit a precise point in thick mist, it works to take many readings. But how would you know it doesn't, if you never use a compass in the
Cuillin? I guess in your near empty sack you haven't got a magnometer to check
strength of local anomalies either to confirm your distrust.


Finally, Catherine D I know not about, sorry.
I do know that when Kilnsey Crag main overhang was first soloed, it had been
rehearsed many times. I may be out of touch with modern trends, but as an elite specialist used to climbing at high grades, she would have found soloing something at a lower grade (E1) is fine. I'm not taking anything away from her amazing achievement, but she knew she could do it. She was on the classic route, and info and descriptions and video abound. Do you know for certain she'd done Absolutely No preparation of the route?

Not enjoying the confrontation, would prefer consensus... Sincerely, Alex

From BMrider - "Not enjoying the confrontation, would prefer consensus... Sincerely, Alex"

No, I'm not either.

I've nearly joined in again on this thread a couple of times, but I keep backing off 'cos it's supposed to be fun, and sorry Norman but you are in danger of taking this thread to places where it ain't fun.

You're in a position now where you seem to stand alone with your views. You are entitled to hold them, but this is starting to sound like a wind up.

Let's lighten it up again, mate.

Quote

•Experience does not guarantee safety. Over half of those involved in mountain incidents are experienced hillgoers. There is a need to reinforce the message that experience does not make people infallible and that caution should prevail even when the risks are apparently low.

I think this is rather like saying women are safer drivers than men, because they have less accidents. The reason they have less accidents is because they drive far less miles.

I would hazard a guess that experienced hillgoers not only make up over 50% of all hillgoers but also that they walk & climb far more miles, particularly over far more difficult & hazardous terrain.

No doubt my overloaded ex-TA pal who never got to the top of anything had it right as he was never in much danger of coming to grief. On the other hand I had all the fun & excitement, sense of adventure & achievement of overcoming the most extreme conditions - no doubt almost entirely down to good fortune [as on thousands of other very lucky occasions].

As for navigating consistently to within 5 deg. accuracy on your tod in a whiteout - makes me wonder why WH Murray & chums bothered with their snowballs - could it be either that they didn't have the same confidence, or that 50m out / km over many miles would most likely have resulted in their walking over the cornice on Braeriach?

Regarding torches - I did suggest to GC that he might like to carry one in future, to perhaps reduce the chances of more early baths

Regarding torches - I did suggest to GC that he might like to carry one in future, to perhaps reduce the chances of more early baths but I honestly can't see it happening, as they cost more than a can of Super [I kid-u-not].

Interesting incident on Creag Meagaidh back in a sixties December, when Tom Patey b*ggered off after topping out on a new winter route in Coire Ardair - he was famous for rarely using a rope when soloing gigantic new routes, such as Crab Crawl in this corrie.

The following party including Chris Bonnington had no idea of where the safe route back down via the window was & none of them had either map or compass. Only one of the party luckily for them found much to his surprise that he actually had a torch.
It took them around 7 hours to eventually find the road, sometime after midnight.

Tom did some of his best new winter routes clad only in a fairly thin jumper, not even bothering with a jacket, as on Lochnagar's Parallel Buttress.

Top mountaineers in the greater ranges routinely fail to rope up on glaciers & when they do, often fail to use the correct rope length between them, resulting in some infamous fatalities.

Don Whillans famously rescued a fellow expedition member from a crevasse on a himalayan glacier, a couple of years later another top guy was not so lucky on the same glacier. I guess when there is a 1 in 7 chance you're going to die going above 8000m, there is a strong tendency to go for the light, fast approach, which will reduce the time spent in the danger zone...

I would hazard a guess that experienced hillgoers not only make up over 50% of all hillgoers but also that they walk & climb far more miles, particularly over far more difficult & hazardous terrain.

Norman, with all due respect, you are indeed guessing. Sharp did the research, read his report. I sincerely believe we should take his findings seriously.

As for navigating consistently to within 5 deg. accuracy on your tod in a whiteout - makes me wonder why WH Murray & chums bothered with their snowballs - could it be either that they didn't have the same confidence, or that 50m out / km over many miles would most likely have resulted in their walking over the cornice on Braeriach?

Again, with respect, your defelecting from the original point of the discussion. The real question isn't how accurately one can navigate with a compass but how accurately you can navigate without one. Whether or not you believe in BM's ability to move on a bearing (for the record: I learnt navigation as an orienteer and thus know very well how accurate pace counting and compas work can be if practiced) it doesn't change the fact that 180 degree errors are common place when not using a compass. I, like most people I suppose, learnt to trust my compass via hard lessons, i.e. failing to check my orientatin and walking off the wrong way. I know how easy it is to go wrong and I know how essential a compass is for safe navigation.

If we are going to express incredulity at the claims made in this tread then try this on for size: I find it hard to believe that anybody can be so familiar with the terrain encapsulating over 600 tops in the scottish highlands that they can navigate it all from memory without incident.

Lets take your example:
50m out / km over many miles would most likely have resulted in their walking over the cornice on Braeriach?

Indeed, no experienced navigator would dead reckon for "many miles". Thats why map and compas are seldom used in isoltaion. You need to move on short bearings and relocate, you need to aim off, basic techniques to account for the innacuracy. Furthermore,staying in conact with your map would tell you to expect the edge. You are far les likely to walk off the edge of anything when you know whats over it! The edge might even be a welcome sight being about the only hand-rail on the palteau. For instance, as long as visibility permitted, you might use it to get you down over Sron na Lairige and into the Lairig Ghru.

Once again, I agree, there are conditions that make navigation nigh on impossible. There are conditions that make keeping breathing nigh on impossible. However, not having a map and compass sure as hell won't help you get off the hill.

I know where Paul is coming from. I had toyed with the idea of not replying several times because each time I get the sense there's bad feeling in the response. However, I revived the thread yesterday and I'm glad to have said my piece.

Norman, your entitled to your opinion. I wish you (and GC) luck.

Sorry can't leave this:

Regarding torches - I did suggest to GC that he might like to carry one in future, to perhaps reduce the chances of more early baths but I honestly can't see it happening, as they cost more than a can of Super .

If I were you, the next thing I would then suggest to GC, is that he stayed at home.


I guess when there is a 1 in 7 chance you're going to die going above 8000m, there is a strong tendency to go for the light, fast approach, which will reduce the time spent in the danger zone...

I think you're getting the himalaya and lochaber mixed up?

Quote:- Short of being dumped blindfolded somewhere you don't know in thick cloud by a helicopter, you will always know where you are, by keeping track as you progress from a known point.

As a true test of your method of navigating over magnetic rocks, by eliminating the 'wild' readings which you don't like:-

Suppose you were blindfolded, taken to a spot 3 miles due south of a tent in featureless magnetic terrain, in a whiteout with zero visibility.

How confident are you that you could find the tent and how long do you think it would take?