Still can't see the point of taking a compass into terrain where they are unreliable - could be downright dangerous if you were to trust it.

Thus, as it is pointless to carry one in the most complex, rockiest & most dangerous massif, why bother with one elsewhere? After 660 Munros/Corbetts & Grahams I can confirm that I've never really needed either map or compass.

Occasionally I've had to go back and climb the right mountain the next time but then I've climbed a few that I otherwise wouldn't have bothered with & had some great adventures to boot.

It's a wonder the pioneers ever set outside their own backyards without all the modern gear, not to mention reliable maps n'est pas?

To NG

As we live in a democracy with the right to free speech I respect your opinion, however I still disagree with you regarding the need for a map & compass

Always best to carry them, you never know, there might come a time when your life could depend on them
Also they do not take up much room in a rucksack

I summise you do not see the need for a first-aid kit either, yet another essential item of kit

Ah well, each to their own

Respectfully

Yomper

It's a case of each to his own, Yomper.

In my youth I was lucky to live near enough to the Lakes to get to know the area fairly well. Then I actually got to live there for 25 years. After a few years had passed I realised that I wasn't taking map and compass out with me, mainly because I knew where I was going and where I wanted to be. Call it sloppy, irresponsible or whatever, but it was fun just wandering, and I can understand where Norman is coming from.

Recently I started leading walks for Holiday Fellowship. Their routes are clearly laid down, risk assessed, and leaders are expected to stick to them, unless there is good reason to do otherwise. Because of that, I've got back into being absolutely "bang on" with the navigation, and wouldn't dream of going out with an HF group without map and compass.

Alone though, I do still enjoy a good wander, guided by the ground and not the map.

As for the first aid kit!! I keep promising myself that I will have a sort out, and remove the stuff I'm not likely to need. Lightweight it ain't!

Hi Paul

I always carry a 1st aid kit, seems to me, a sensible thing to do

I respect yours and Normans opinions but I do not agree with them, anyway lets hope we all remain safe whilst out enjoying the hills

Regards

Yomper

Once had a friend who used to carry everything but the kitchen sink up on the hill. He was so weighed down he never actually got to the summit when he set off on one of my expeditions, despite being a leader in the TA, well over 6ft tall & built like a tank.

On each occasion in tremendously wild weather, with blizzards & storm force winds I always got to the summit safely, carrying what no doubt you [& him], would consider to be a wholely inadequate amount of gear. On several such occasions I had to literally crawl to the top.

The most I ever carry is a spare jumper, bottle of juice & bar of chocolate. Ninety-nine times out of an hundred I find I have neither donned the spare sweater or eaten the chocolate. The juice sometimes comes in useful though, particularly on long ridges in summer.

The secret of success is to move fast & light in my experience...

Hi Norman,
I was genuinely interested in what happened there regarding your route finding on the hill. Didn't mean to be contentious. However with a compass (I don't have a GPS) I have safely acchieved some very ambitious walks/climbs by shrewdly being very efficient with covering the ground - I wouldn't have completed what I had set out to do if I had lost time back-tracking and regaining height etc. And certainly going for a swim in a river that I needn't've had to cross has been avoided. I'm all in favour of freedom, and sticking 2 fingers up to nannying H&S interference, just wandering and exploring, but when things go pearshaped, a compass is simply indispensible.
Also it's incredibly satisfying for the intellectual challenge to arrive exactly where you want to be in cloud or white-out conditions. Finally to be able to give rescuers information that they can use could make a life or death difference.

Regarding the Gabro, Dave, it is not a myth. Up on the main ridge I have taken 15 bearings over a 30ft space and got 180º variations. But by taking so many I averaged them (and left out the most wildly obviously wrong readings) and been spot on. The magnetic interference is at its worse on the sharpest points and narrowest parts of the ridge. So it really is necessary to walk backwards and forwards to get many readings. It is quite funny to see a compass behaving so aberantly!
I still enjoyed your account NG, so do post another one. And I hope you can see that it's not pointless in taking a compass even on to the Cuillin

"Given that the Black Cuillin are technically by far the hardest mountains in the British Isles, to set foot on them would be to commit a grave sin going by your criteria..."

Norman, not at all. I didn't set down any criteria. Like you I believe in freedom to roam the hills but I don't see how a carrying a compass and an OS sheet interferes with that freedom. Nor do I see how it interferes with the principal of fast and light. I can only judge the situation you describe from the words you use, I wasn't there so maybe I'm not judging the situation correctly, but you make it sound very dodgy. Hoping to find a col? Your buddy stepping into a river he didn't know was there? Your buddy not being sure what the plan was?

My statement was simple. I PERSONALLY find it irresponsible to be without a compass and map. Leaving them at home makes your opportunity for relocation that much worse. Like everyone else here I take a risk when I go into the hills. Who knows, one day I may even need to call on the assistance of mountain rescue. It happens to the best of us. However, if that were ever to happen, I would hate to feel that I hadn't done my utmost to ensure I can get myself out of trouble. Its not in te MR's creed to criticise the people they rescue, nor should it be, but I would be mortified if they had to come out because I didn't have the basic navigational equipment on me and I couldn't relocate.

Your comment re. the pioneers: they may well have gone into the wilderness with limited means but thats because they had no choice. The best of them still minmised risk with the means they had to hand.

So many munros. I take my hat off to you! I still think its dumb not to carry a map and compas though. I can see the attraction of "free walking" in the way Paul describes it, but that's still possible with a map and compass in your pack.

Sorry but you really are kidding yourself if you think you can accurately navigate by yourself in a whiteout. Try reading WH Murray's piece 'A Cairngorm Blizzard', of the man himself & 2 pals, trying to navigate by throwing snowballs - needs to be at least 3 of you to have a hope in hell...

If you carry a map & compass, you will end up using them, thereby missing out on the enjoyment of working out later where you have been.

Not sure how taking numerous compass bearings & averaging them is consistent with moving fast. In any case as a Bsc. [hons] Geology graduate & Physicist I can tell you that you may have struck lucky once but to rely on this method would be utter folly.

Regarding the actions of any fellow hillwalker, I cannot be held responsible for their actions, if they decide to strike off on their own & throw themselves in a river, that is entirely up to them.

Sorry but you really are kidding yourself if you think you can accurately navigate by yourself in a whiteout. Try reading WH Murray's piece 'A Cairngorm Blizzard', of the man himself & 2 pals, trying to navigate by throwing snowballs - needs to be at least 3 of you to have a hope in hell...

Sorry Norman but this is feeble. Sure there are extreme situations that would make navigation near to impossible even with the right tools. The Cairngorm plateau is a place that takes lives and not just those of the inexerienced. But to say a compass won't help in a white out so there's no point in carrying one under any circumstances is just crazy. Would you get along better in a white out without a compass? Are there no situations where a compass would get you out of trouble? If I ever find my self on McDui in the midst of the unholiest storms your can be sure I'l walk (or crawl as the case may be) on the compas needle rather than doing so blind. I'll take my chances with a compass thanks.

Regarding the actions of any fellow hillwalker, I cannot be held responsible for their actions, if they decide to strike off on their own & throw themselves in a river, that is entirely up to them.


You're a hard man Norman. In fact, wasn't suggesting it was your responsibility (thats another subject we disagree on now you mention it though) was infact sugesting that rivers are generaly marked on OS maps.


I suspect we're not going to agree on the compass issue my friend. But thats okay, each to his own.

To draw an analogy with rock climbing, I guess many would label Catherine Destiville as crazy & irresponsible for climbing without a rope - particularly when televised soloing the Old Man of Hoy whilst pregnant?

To take this argument to it's logical conclusion, every acceptable route would have a ladder of bolts up it. No-one would dream of leading a new route, certainly not without toproping & cleaning it first...

Regarding GC's diving in the Broadford River - I'd put a lot of money on the chances of a map having made any difference as Slim & None and Slim's left town.

I think I'm right in saying that many tragedies are of the 'All the gear - no idea', variety. Some folk seem to believe that if they've got the latest kit they'll be OK.

I remember half a lifetime ago now when several guys died walking down the Cairngorm ski road. Probably all had a map and compass?