Other considerations on compact v's DSLR are, most obviously cost (especially as you might write it off), but also ease of use. If the DSLR gets packed into the backpack it's not going to get used as much as it should, and you'll probably miss the best shots. A compact can fit into a front pocket or a pouch on the rucksack strap or belt. It took me three DSLR camera bags to get one that worked for me - available in front quickly whilst wearing a backpack(thanks Peewiglet).

To get back to Dave's original comment about tripods, I use a lens with vibration reduction and have rarely used a tripod with the camera. The VR lens cost much more than a tripod, but I couldn't bring myself to lug a tripod across Scotland, and the VR is instantly available, whilst it takes a while to set up a tripod.

Except in heavy rain or on hard scrambles I always carry my DSLR in a pouch slung across my body so I have quick access to it without removing my pack. I've carried an SLR like this for decades.

I have Canon Image Stabilisation lenses and these do help in lowish light. I still need a support for low light at sunset/sunrise however and for self-portraits and camping images. The Gorillapod is excellent for this and I might take one on the Challenge this year rather than the heavier tripod. John, I've carried that tripod the length of the Canadian Rockies and on my walk over the Munros and Tops as well as other very long walks! I reckon it's been worth weight.

Wow. You guys have been busy! Even got a response from John after a month without a post. Welcome back John.

Cameron: Photography isn't my main motivation for being out there but its increasingly important for me to have a record of my trip. While you guys are on the hill more often than not I'll be stuck at home thumbing through my image files. I'm surprised you use compacts exclusively. I would't have guessed so from the images you've posted and published. A pentax optio-s was my only digital for some years and became the only camera I'd use on trips. As was said already (John, I think) compacts are just fine when the conditions are good but when less than optimum an SLR gives you a way of dealing with it. Overall I'm happy with the results, convenience and of course weight but often, the images just lack a little something. Usualy thats balanced exposure, skys in particular tend to be washed out (Presumably you have a photoshop guru at TGO?). Worse still, low light photgraphy is very difficult with a compact and Sunsets and sunrises are pretty central to the whole experience.

Chris: 3kg!! The last two summers I've been out with pack weights of around 10kg (all-up) for long weekends (typically trips of 3/4 days). Was it Ronald Turnbull who said something like "things change when you get under 10kg"? They certainly did for me. I'm reluctant to go back to heavier pack-weights. My DSLR is the Olympus 420. As far as I'm aware thats still the lightest DSLR on the market. My full kit : topload zoom 2, 420 body, 14-42mm (28-84 in old money) lens, 40-150mmm (80-300) lens and filters comes to (a fantastic) 1.3kg. I know I shouldn't complain at that figure but it takes me back up to 11kg without tripod. I can see ways of compensating for the additional weight but would have to explain, amongst other things, a second new rucksack in 2 years to my wife ; )
My understanding is that the biggest disadvantage of the 4/3 system is noise at long exposure times. Also since stabilsation is in the body rather than the lens I'd need the bigger (and heavier) 520 body to hand hold at long exposures. I think therefore a tripod would be very handy for this set-up. I'll have to give the gorillapod a try and see how it works out.

Ian: Yes Olympus make pancake lenses. They make a realy cute 25mm (50mm at 35mm)which is on my hit list (along with a wide angle-oh oh more weight and cost!). Check outAlans UL for a nice apraisal of the Olypus kit for backpacking.

Dave and John: I don't have any experience using digital compacts in poor conditions, so when you say they don't perform well what exactly do you mean. Is it that:

1. uniformly grey skies are bleaching out? If that's the case you're limited in what you can do at the picture taking stage, but during processing, if using Adobe lightroom 2 (I really must upgrade) you can use the graduated filter to darken the sky as I mentioned earlier. I expect this filter will appear in Photoshop CS sometime, but would be surprised to see it in Elements for a long time.

2. pictures lack detail or are noisy? This is to do with the v small sensor size operating at higher ISOs. Small sensors are prone to noise because the light sensitive sights are tiny, and the signal needs more amplification resulting in noise. If using Raw you'll see the noise, if JPEG in camera processing gets rid of the noise by softening the image. The answer here is to use a tripod (like the Gorillapod), so that you can stick to the lower ISO setting. (Or use fast film).



Sensor size is important, that's probably why the 4/3 system could be noisey under long exposure Dave, but not as noisey as a std digital compact. Std APS DSLR sensors will be less so, and full frame even less. When I got my EOS 5D it was for the full frame sensor. At the time it was the only "affordable" one available, but it has lightened my load on many walks, despite being a heavey camera (1.7kg with a 24-105L lens), because the lack of noise means I can use ISO 400 when needed, and at that speed, with the IS lens, I can handhold, thereby negating the need for my 1.8kg c/f tripod. And I have great picture quality, which I can crop into if needs be.

I may have gone overboard on this. I wonder how often Chris uses his EOS 450D at ISO 400.

For sunsets and sunrises, Dave, you really need to darken the sky a lot. It may be possible with a compact by using a technique called High Dynamic Range (HDR). Here you take multiple shots (up to 5 so I recall) of the scene, exposing for the shadows and the highlights, and in between. Then process the images using an HDR program/plug-in. This combines the shots taking the best exposures from each one and combining in a single image. You need a sturdy tripod though (not a gorrillapod) and its no good if things are moving in the frame.

I carry my camera in an Aarn bodypack, which has the advantage of balancing out my heavier load using front large pockets on the shoulder straps, into which I put my DSLR, making it instantly accessible, but before that I just disciplined myself to dump the pack and pull out the camera. The advantage of which is you're more likely to find the optimum position for the composition if not wearing a backpack.

I guess its a question of horses for courses. I enjoy my backpacking too much to be burdened by carrying a heavy camera kit, so I'm willing to sacrifice some of the undoubted advantages of an SLR. I have a Nikon D100 and a battery of lenses and I take it trekking, but on those occasions I'm generally only carrying a day pack. Most of the images I shoot are for use in my weekly newspaper column or for AV presentations. I don't often publish my own shots in TGO but those I do publish are generally shot on the little Leica. Those are probably good for up to A4 size. I wouldn't want to push them more than that. The biggest disadvantage I can see in digital compacts is the amount of noise that's produced in low light situations - that's a particular problem with the Leica. And, no, we don't really have a Photoshop guru at TGO. I don't like the idea of messing about too much with an image in Photoshop. I'll generally adjust levels and contrast slightly, and now and then I'll saturate a little but no more than that. For much the same reasons I'm not too keen on filters so I don't miss them on a compact. At the end of the day I don't really regard myself as a photographer. I'm a writer who needs images so photography tends to fall into the "more hassle" category.

Ian, I use ISO 400 quite often with the 450D. The double page spread on pages 94-95 in the February TGO was taken at ISO 400. (Other settings were 125/F5.6, 18mm).

Lightroom 2 is excellent. Before getting it I used separate software for raw processing and image management. Being able to do both in one programme has speeded up my workflow - and means I'm now more efficient at filing images and adding keywords so I can find them quickly. I haven't used the graduated filter much but the few times I have it has proved excellent. The crop tool is also very good.

I had a sneeky feeling you were going to say that. I almost went for the 400D that was out at the time too. I probably did aim too high, but I tend to err on the side of caution.

Luckily when I dipped my big toe into the murky waters of digital (as I saw it at the time) Lightroom 1 was just out. I pounced and use it for all my processing and filing. At least it saved the expense of CS, and all I take is Raw files as opposed to Raw + JPEG, so I don't need as many memory cards either.

Everybody seems to have different answers, but then, everybody is taking different photos.

On reflection though, given that we are discussing this in the Ultralight Backpacking section, I think Cameron is right with his compact camera (and to be fair Ian keeps suggesting compacts too). I'm not sure what weight of backpacking gear is considered ultralight, but I know it's light enough that one, two, or even (dare I say it :-) ) three kg of camera equipment is a significant proportion of that.

Let's say a typical DSLR kit might weigh 1500g, and a compact 300g. In the pursuit of the ultralight where else can we reduce wight by 80% with only minimal loss of performance? I would say a tarp is a far worse shelter than a tent, but the weight saving might only be 50%, whereas a good compact isn't that much worse than a DSLR.

Of course, there are other reasons for using a tarp besides keeping the wind and rain off, and likewise some people might have a need to use a DSLR, but for most of us I wonder if a collection of shots taken with a compact would be that much worse than a collection taken with a DSLR? There might be a few shots missing - camp at dusk - but would the collection be significantly worse?

(Ditto the £s. Even buying bargains my body and lens has cost £700 with another £400 earmarked for a wide angle lens. But that's not really an ultralightweight issue).

Much food for thought.

John

I have a Panasonic Lumix LX3, which is a compact camera admitedly, but since I have been using it, I am amazed at the quality of the pictures I have been able to get. It weighs around 265g for the basic body although if you add gorillapod, filters etc it will go up but not above 500g. It has RAW ability although I havent used that yet and to be honest I am still working out some of the functions on it!



I know it wont be to everyone's taste but for me because walking is still first and photography second on my list of priorities, it fits the bill nicely. I am and will never be a very good photographer as my time is spread pretty thin what with kids, work, other hobbies etc. For now I am content with something I can "bung" in the rucksack and know that it will produce good photos time after time.

Occasionally I get really lazy and just take the Nokia N95. Although it is a camera phone (phone camera?) it does have a 5mp Carl Zeiss lens and has produced (in good light) some very good shots indeed.

John, you make a good point about this being the Ultralight Backpacking forum! If publishers didn't require DSLR images I would certainly use a compact - one from the Ricoh GX200, Canon G10 and Panasonic LX3. Indeed, I suspect the quality from these cameras could be adequate for publishers. Luminous Landscape compared images from a G10 and a 39mp Hasselblad medium format system and found it hard to distinguish images measuring 13x9 inches. Only at bigger sizes did the Hasselblad have an advantage. And of course if you can live with a 28mm fixed lens then the Sigma DP1 compact will produce DSLR quality images. Using a Gorillpod or other support you can take low light shots such as camp at dusk with a compact too. I've done so with the DP1 and with the Ricoh GR-D.

I have to say though that when I only carry a compact I miss the speed of a DSLR, the through-the-lens view, the controls and the lens options.